The only thing I use arrangers for anyway is the drum and bass tracks from the arranger styles. I like to compose/arrange my other parts. I never use arrangers in a live performance setting, only in a compositional/recording/sequencing manner. That being said, only looking at rhythm tracks, is this basically, what the MOTIF's preset phrases or phrase factory is all about? From the description, it sounds like it responds to chord changes and acts like a "style" where the bass, drums, and maybe guitar/keys are concerned. Is this correct? I still would rather use an arranger for composing and recording over a synth sequencer, because I feel the arranger's 16 track song format makes more sense i.e. intro sections, variation, fills, etc. Sequencers on synths are not as "handy" in that way.

Has anyone ever tried out the preset phrase factory stuff on the motif before? What's it like? And how does it compare to the ease of the arranger style format if you're just isolating a rhythm track in the style?

What Yamaha is describing in "Phrase factory" are the arps and preset drum loop phrases from the pattern sequencer. Some of the arps respond in a way similar to playing a left hand chord on an arranger, while others are dependant upon the actual notes that you play and the order and that they are played. A third type are set drum patterns that don't change no matter what note is played.

It's a different approach than an arranger, and you won't get full arrangements with variations, intros, and fills, etc, but it does allow the composer to mix and match parts quickly and up to 5 arp patterns can be stored and memorized so that they can be changed on the fly during real time play / recording. Also, many of the phrases sound more "musical" than arranger style parts because they aren't necessarily locked into the same pattern, especially those that are controlled via the order of the notes played ( non chord recognition arps ), Also, the assignable knobs can control several parameters in real time including gate time and groove time.

Yes, I use the factory preset stuff, but I also make some modifications to a particular arp so that I have subtle variations within. It's easy to modify and save arps as user arps, or make new ones up from scratch. The remix feature can be very helpful too and looks like it would lend itself particularly well to electronic and dance type creations.

AJ

I think it's only at first when using the Motif ES that you get the indication that the "combination" arps are like arranger styles. They aren't alike except that the arps of the Mo respond to chord changes. There is no "intro, fill-to, verse, chorus" layout to them; and by far there are more individual instrument arps than the typical bass/drum/instrument arps. Once you get into it, you realize there's more to life than bass/drums/instrument combos anyway. The Motif is way deeper than any arranger, especially when it comes to the sequencer which integrates audio and sample slicing with midi. Ease-of-use is a questionable term here - the Mo is not as easy to use as an arranger but it gives you far more creative power in return for a little more effort. The end reason that you'll get a Motif ES is for the quality of sounds, which no arranger currently can match.

Explaining all of the differences and nuances would take a long time, so my best advice is this: if you're considering a Motif ES you should get "A Complete Guide To The Yamaha Motif ES" DVD which is available from http://www.motifator.com/mart/mainframeMVES.htm for $5 (the $5 is for shipping - the DVD is free). It's money well spent for a thorough 2 hour and 48 minute tour.
Also this month's Keyboard magazine features a review of the Motif ES that is very good. Keyboard not only gave the Motif ES a KeyBuy award but some of it's highest praises ever, even noting that it costs less than the Triton or Fantom-S. I think we're going to be hearing a lot of and about the Motif ES in the coming year.


[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 11-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 11-06-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Pro:
[B]Also this month's Keyboard magazine features a review of the Motif ES that is very good. Keyboard not only gave the Motif ES a KeyBuy award but some of it's highest praises ever, even noting that it costs less than the Triton or Fantom-S. I think we're going to be hearing a lot of and about the Motif ES in the coming year.

Not to get picky or anything but the Roland Fantom S/88 are actually cheaper in price than the comparable Motif ES's. Roland just dropped the price of the S and I'm sure it was AFTER the Keyboard Mag review. But I still wanted to point that out. You can get the Roland Fantom S for $1,499 and the S88 for $2,399 at Gutiar Center. The Motif ES6 is 2 Grand and the ES8 is $2,800. But I agree the Motif ES blows the Roland Fantom away in regards to sounds in Most categories. The Fantom has a very decent Piano and some other very good Voices too but overall the Motif ES takes the cake for sure. And with the Motif ES's you get 'double' the Polyphony of the Fantom S/88. But if you know how to use the Sampler on the Fantom S/88 you can basically eliminate the note drop off in your compositions by Sampling a lot of your sounds you use in the Mix. A little hassle to do but it can be done. Kudos to Yamaha though for giving the Motif ES's 128 note Polyphony. That is a BIG plus and advantage imo.

Best regards,
Mike

Owning both the Tyros and a Motif ES 8, these are really IMO 2 totally different instruments with only the vaguest of similarities in the abstract.

Phrase factory is somewhat of a misleading or at least amisunderstood term. It's meaning is more of a concept rather than a thing. It is about combining elements from the Motif as AJ pointed out, arps, remix and patterns, all recorded to make a phrase. The phrase then gets combined to make patterns that in turn make songs.

As Pro pointed out, it is a very creative tool but takes a whole lot more work (IMO) to do then the more auotmated user friendliness of the Tyros.

All depends on your wants and needs. The Tyros more fun to just sit down and play an entire arrangement, the Mo will take work to play an entire arrangement, though one can certainly sit down and play voices and performances.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Just FYI: The Original Motif6 is still in the product line at a reduced price and has a lot of the features of the ES. For the budget minded keyboard player, this is a lot of bang for the buck.

------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

Yep, the fantoms are cheaper now, but so are the Motif classics. I listened to both of the updated models, and while I'm happy that the ES is priced competitvely, even if it were a lot more than the Fantom S, I'd still easily choose the Motif. The Fantom has an easier interface for me to work in and figure out, and it has very good features, including some that I'd have liked to have on the Es, but I just didn't like it's sounds at all when I compared them with the ones on the ES, so at the end of the day it was the ES that I took home.

The added polyphony has made a huge difference for me. I'm not seeing all the note drop offs any more. Of course the acid test is yet to come, when I load a full s3quence and a user voice with 4 elements, but ..so far so good.

There are a number of tools in it to help the creative musician, I agree with what Terry says too. It's not as convienient as the Tyros or other good arranger for someone who wants to "plug and play", but a lot can be gotten out of this board with a little extra effort.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-04-2003).]

Interesting you have both. Do you think it's possible to get the "sweet" voices into the MOTIF ES either by loading the samples or resampling? The MOTIF has really great sounds all around, except for the solo wind/brass sounds. I wish there was a plug-in board with all the naturally sampled vibrato "sweet" voices. When sequencing in short phrases here and there, the sweet voices, if played right, sound like the real thing. The Motif horns and winds still sound fake even if used a few notes at a time. Just my opinion. Programming custom vibrato parameters doesn't quite sound as natural.

Okay, Yamaha, you improved the MOTIF by adding 128 polyphony. Let's get the rest of the good voices from the TYROS and we'll have something I want. Sweet, Natural, Live, Mega Plugin would be okay too.

There is NO PLG Board that I'm aware of that includes the Sweet!, Live!, and Cool! voices of the Tyros, etc. But if and when you buy the Motif ES, all of the Sweet!, Live! and Cool! voices of the Tyros, etc., are included on the "CD-ROM" that comes with the ES. There are many, many other Voices that are included with the CD-ROM too. There is a whole library of Synth, Brass and Woodwind, Choir, Acoustic, and Organ (a few) on the CD-ROM. You have to manually load the Voices from the CD-ROM into the Motif ES by way of the USB "To Device" port. That means you need a computer, (which you obviously have), to be able to transfer the Voices on the CD-ROM to a Smart Media Card - by way and in conjunction with a Smart Reader Device. You then would hook the Smart Reader device (or the Smart Media Card directly to the SM Slot) to the Mo ES's USB "To Device" connection and then 'load' the Voices into the Motif ES. Btw, you will have to purchase RAM [DIMM} sticks and of course a Smart Media Card/Smart Reader device to be able to not only load the data from the CD-ROM into the Motif ES but also to use the Sampler function/feature of the Motif ES. You can also purchase an External USB Hard Drive to use with the Motif ES if you choose. A little hassle in that it is not nor can you use an 'internal' Hard Drive. Nevertheless even an 'External' Hard Drive is still nice to have and comes in 'very' handy when you want to transfer 'large' data files. Smart Media is lacking in that the spec only goes up to 128 Mb. For instance; if you wanted to load "ALL" the Voices on the CD-ROM on a 128 Mb SM Card you would "NOT" be able to because the Voices on the CD-ROM are about 160 Mb's worth if my memory serves me correctly. The point is; Yamaha should consider switching Media (on future Workstations, etc.) to, let's say, SD Memory [Secure Digital] because the added advantage SD Memory has over Smart Media. SD Memory Cards are up to "1 Gigabyte" in capacity and 'soon' will be up to "8" Gigabytes in size. That would be like having a minature Hard Drive and you would have absolutely no problem loading "ALL" the Data from the Motif ES CD-ROM onto the Mo ES. The way it stands now you have to pick and choose and "leave off" some Voices that you may have wanted "ON" the Smart Media Card and the ES. You would have to buy 2 SM Cards to do so now plus the hassle of taking one out and putting the other one in, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. You get my picture. Realizing all the while that Smart Media Cards are very sensitive to "Static". So in the process of "back and forth" you could possibly "ZAP!" the SM Card Kaput!! I had that very thing happen to one of my SM Cards the "brief" time I owned the Motif ES7. With a Secure Digital Card you could put it in the 'Slot' and forgehtdaboudit!!

Wake up Call Yammie!!

PS: I realize Yamaha kept the Smart Media specification for the Motif ES because they wanted 'compatibility' with its predecessor the Motif Classic. But for 'Future' Workstations I hope they make the switch to a more 'generous' Memory Media.

Another PS: (No need to pass that along to Corporate Headquarters Steve). I already let Athan, Mike, and Bad_Mister know of my disappoint with Yamaha Japan using the SM Media spec for the ES. Hopefully Yamaha Japan will 'get with it' and switch or at least give an option of using an 'internal Hard Drive' with its future Flagship Workstation.

Sorry for ranting but I felt it need to be addressed -again.

Best regards,
Mike

I had no idea ES came with a CD-rom which included these tyros sweet voices, etc. I checked out MOTIFATOR and saw description of several of the CD libraires, but found no mention of it. In any case, I guess that's all I was griping about, so I guess I'll be buying an ES. I just wish it was setup more like an arranger. I'm so used to that type of format when composing, sequencing, etc. It'll be hard to learn something new.